Interviewed April 18, 1985
Cornelia: b. Jaunary 9, 1910
Clara: b. January 26, 1908
Concord Oral History Program
William Bailey, Interviewer.
I am Cornelia Martinsen Lawrence. I was born on January 9, 1910 in Concord, Massachusetts.
I am Clara Martinsen Murphy and I was born on January 25, 1908 in Concord, Massachusetts.
...And what were your parents' names?
Clara – My mother's name was Karin Andersen Martinsen and my father was Christian Martinsen.
...And I think I found they were married around 1903, is that right? Right here in Concord?
Cornelia – Yes.
...The first thing I'd like to get a sense of is their roots.
They both came from Norway - what part and what led them to come here and what did they do when they first got here?
Cornelia – Well, my father came from Loiten. And my mother came from Trissel. Trissel covers a large area we found. We've been there and we found that Trissel covers a very large area. Maybe she was in one very small place in Trissel, but it's all a part of that area.
...And where is Trissel relative to Loiten? Is is far away?
Cornelia – I don't think it's far away, but I couldn't tell you in miles.
... It seems to me when I interviewed Nellie Nelson and her sister-in-law, Agnes, that one of their families was also from Trissel. Were you aware of that?
Cornelia – No, I wasn't.
...One of their parents also came from there. Your mother, Karin Andersen, came here as an unmarried girl?
Cornelia – Yes.
... Do you know when she came?
Cornelia – We never found out about that. My mother lived to be 99. She was very active up until the last two years and the last year she wasn't able to say anything, and all that time we thought of all the things we wanted to ask her that we hadn't asked her.
Clara – I would say she probably came around 1900.
Cornelia – We think so, yes. We try to keep a record for our own children and grandchildren now.
...I won't know whether they came directly to Concord, but again maybe you know that.
Cornelia – Well, I think they did. Mrs. Rudolph Petersen, I think, had helped all these younq women who came to Concord, and I believe my mother went to work for Dr. Chamberlain. She was a maid at Dr. Chamberlain's for many years. Well, of course my mother was there long before Anne [Newbury] was born, but she was there for many years and I think she probably was there when she was married. And my father, I think, was a mason when he first came here, and I believe he had something to do with Martin Helsher. Do your records show anything about Martin Helsher having a business like that or perhaps he lived there, or something.
...I know that Martin Helsher was almost always a truck farmer and he did have a number of hired men who worked for him. So your mother, then, came and worked as a maid. Did she take care of the children too or was it primarily the house?
Cornelia – Household duties.
..And where did the Chamberlain's live at that point, do you know?
Cornelia – I think they probably lived on Lowell Road, in that area.
Clara – The old Chamberlain house there on Lowell Road, I would think.
Cornelia – She often referred to Dr. Chamberlain when we were children. I assume they lived there, but I can't be sure.
...Did your mother come with any brothers and sisters. Do you have any aunts and uncles or are they all back there?
Cornelia – My mother had one sister, who came here when mother had one of her children. That sister contracted tuberculosis, and the doctor told my mother that she couldn't stay with the family because the children would get T.B. so she had to go home and that just broke my mother's heart because she was the only sister she had and she wanted her to stay here. And she died back there. So my mother and father came here sort of by themselves.
Clara – When we think about it, how did they have the courage because they never saw their family again. They were never able to go back. They went back in 1955 for the first time.
..But they did go back!
Cornelia – They did go back. And my mother never saw her parents again. And she had two brothers but only one brother living. And I went in '62 and I met that brother. That's the only uncle or member of the family I ever met.
...Still in Trissel?
Cornelia – He was in Trissel, yes, at that time, in the old family home, and I met him then.
...Is Trissel on the seacoast?
Cornelia – No, it is not.
...Is it a little farming community, would you say?
Cornelia – Yes, it is more that. There's nothing industrial there.
Clara – Seems as though it's like Middlesex County would be because there are many, many towns in Trissel.
...Oh, I see. In that sense, it's like Hamar which is another word that keeps cropping up for Loiten. The Engebretsen's came from Hamar, where there are lots of little villages.
Cornelia – We have a cousin living in Hamar whom we visted this summer. Trissel is very near the Swedish border. I think my mother came by herself as far as we know. She didn't come with anybody. And we think she got to Concord through Mrs. Rudolph Petersen because she was always sort of a ... well, she was my godmother, Mrs. Rudolph Petersen. I always felt very special because I had a godmother....Mrs. Rudolph, she's an Andersen, Lars Andersen's sister,Marie.M.
Clara – You can see now that they look very much alike....Well, I think that was another connection with all these Loiten ... I say "Loyton" and then some people say "Lerten".
Cornelia – "Lerten." Yes, some of them do. I think in Norway they say "Lerten."
...It depends on how you spell it, apparently. If you spell it with an "oi" as we do, I think it's "Loyton" but if you spell it with that ...
Clara – They have a line that they draw through ...
...through the "o".
Clara – ... that changes it. It makes a different sound that way.
Cornelia – We noticed that they do have different sounds.
... So perhaps too it may be that your mother was encouraged by Mrs. Petersen, and sometimes they answered ads. Lots of these Concord families, I think, placed advertisements through some kind of an agency that dealt with Norwegian girls because clearly they were perceived as reliable.
Clara – Yes, desirable, honest.
...Desirable, honest women to have as maids and there were just dozens and dozens and dozens of them who came.
Cornelia – They all were maids when they came here.
Clara – They had no other skills so I suppose if there was someone here, it would be a drawing card for the others to come here.
...Norwegian girls wouldn't come and work in the mills whereas the Irish and Scottish and English girls would come. It's fascinating as to what standard would be acceptable and what would not be. So what can you tell me about your father, Christian Martinsen?
Cornelia – Well, he came from Loiten. There was he and one brother. And his mother died. And I think the boys left and came over here then. And the father remarried and I didn't know this until my cousin in Hamar told me about this. I wrote to him and asked him if he could tell me anything about my father's family because we were interested to find out. And he wrote that the father married again. My father was over here and I don't know what ever happened to his brother. But my father never knew his stepsisters or brothers. There were other children in the family but he apparently never had any communication after that. We never heard anything about them.
... So he must have been 18 or 19 when he came.
Cornelia – Yes, he was two years older than my mother so he might have been 20.
...But they didn't know each other before they came.
Cornelia – No. They met over here.
...And I have it down that he was the son of Martin Michelson.
Cornelia – Yes, that's right.
...And so as the Norwegians often did, they would just take the name of their father.
Clara – Very hard to trace your family because of this.
...Isn't it?
Clara – It's almost impossible.
Cornelia – They don't do it now, but it's very hard to find your history.
...Well, I have a document here.
Clara – There was an exposition on "The Promise of America."
...In Loiten, this was?
Clara – No, this was in Oslo. Sonja Henie gave a great big building, arts building, to the country, and it's in Oslo. And the exposition there, "The Promise of America", it really was fascinating. I don't know where they ever got the pictures. They were blown up to life-size and it depicted a young Norwegian couple leaving together, as a matter of fact. It showed, step by step, everything they had to go through to get to America. Wasn't that put on by the Sons of Norway?
Cornelia – Yes, it was.
Clara – It showed them leaving their home, and then they had to go to Bergen and wait there for transportation to London and then they might have to wait several weeks for a place in steerage on the boat to get to America. As I understood it, they had to bring their own food and anything that they were going to need, they had o bring with them, so I never could figure out how they could do that. Then it showed them getting to Ellis Island and all they had to go through there. And then dispersing to various parts of the country and following through. They went to Minnesota, I think it was, and he worked for a farmer and when they were there a few years, they would get land grants. You know, it just showed all the hardships they had to go through and you just wonder how they ever had courage to start off and do that. And when I think of my mother coming alone and my father too, for that matter, but more so my mother as a very young girl, it's just amazing that she ever had the courage to come by herself and go though all those hardships to get here.
...When your father came, he must have come because he'd also heard about it from all these other people in Loiten but you don't know specifically.
Cornelia – Word got back. No, I do not.
...But do you know what he did when he first came here because the harness shop comes a little later, so what did he do first?
Cornelia – Well, I want to ask my son about that. One time my son had quite a talk with his grandfather. That's where I think he told him that he was a mason. Of course, we never knew him by that trade at all because he was always a leather worker, and I think he was a leather worker in Norway too. But apparently, if that's what he told him, I suppose that was the only kind of work he could get when he arrived here. It had something to do with living at Martin Helsher's house. Now, it may have been farm work. I may be wrong about that.
...And then he met your mother and they were married in 1903? 1902?
Cornelia – 1903.
...And then, where did they live?
Clara – When they were married, as far as I know, they moved to Bedford Court. We were little children on Bedford Court, the little street opposite the cemetery.
Cornelia – Yes. When we were very small, we lived on the end of that street.
Clara – Way down at the very end of Bedford Court.
Cornelia – And then my mother didn't think that was a good environ ment for us.
...How many children lived there then? How many of there were you.
Cornelia – I think we were all born there. There were nine all told.
Clara – Yes, because the infant died. The last baby died at probably two months.
...But there were eight who all grew up?
Cornelia – Four boys and four girls.
...But at that point when you lived on Bedford Court, what kind of work did your father do or is that still unclear to you?
Clara – Well, I think that's when he was in the harness shop because that was World War I and they needed the harnesses for the horses. They did all army work.
...And what kind of work did he do there?
Clara – Stitching of leather harnesses. I remember they worked very long hours, twelve hours a day I'm sure, because I can remember riding up on a bicyle bringing his supper up to him. Do you remember that, Cornelia?
Cornelia – Yes, that was your job. You delivered the supper.
...What time would he have to be there, do you know?
Clara – I think he had to be there at six o'clock in the morning.
Cornelia – Very early in the morning.
...Do you have any idea what he got paid? He probably didn't tell you.
Cornelia – No, I wouldn't have any idea.
Clara – A pittance, I imagine. Probably ten dollars a week. I don't know.
...And that was Wheeler that ran that, wasn't it?
Cornelia – Yes, it was. Harvey Wheeler.
...Where was the harness shop located?
Cornelia – I think it's sort of where the little mall is up there in West Concord.
Cornelia – You know where the Hudson Bank is right out here? That's where you come in off Baker Avenue. Was it this side of the brook or the other side? I think this side of the brook. I think it's right where they built that new trust.
Clara – Oh, they've torn down that building, then?
Cornelia – That's gone, yes.
...Over where they built the new colonial?
Cornelia – Yes, that beautiful building. Beautiful place. It was right in there.
Clara – It was three stories high at that time. Then they took off a story, as I recall.
Cornelia – Yes, they did. And the Harolds owned it after that and they had some shops.
...Did he work there all his life then, until he retired?
Cornelia – No. Then he worked at Hay's Shoe Store down in Concord. It's where ... let me see, the Pot Shop is there now.
Clara – Right about where the Pot Shop is.
Cornelia – There was a Healy's Fish Market, and Joe Hay's Shoe Store. He'd be the grandfather of this Joe Hay.
...Oh, I see, yes, because there was Isaac and Carl and Carl was the father and I think he had his shoe store here in West Concord, and Isaac, I think his name was or Isaiah or something like that, so he worked for him.
Cornelia – Yes, he did.
Clara – He was the grandfather of this Joe.
...I also found a surprising number of Norwegians that seemed to be interested in that like the Thorpes and there were others too, and again it's the leather. It's fascinating. And the skill. Large numbers of Norwegians were carpenters in Concord too. As I looked at the list of carpenters in Concord, I found more Norwegians than any other ethnic group. There just seemed to be a direction that they would move in, whereas then, there were other things that they wouldn't want to do. So some bought farms, like the Petersens, Olsens and so on.
Cornelia – Very successful farmers. But we assume he did something in leatherwork back in Norway before he came here so that's the way he went when he got here. But it may be that someone else carried him along with them. We're not too sure.
...Tell me about your mother's worry about Bedford Court, as you recall.
Cornelia – Well, she had eight children.
Clara – There were no Norwegians there and there were, I recall, a lot of Italians who came in from Boston and lived at the end where we had to come through to come out of Bedford Court and every Sunday morning all of Boston would come in to Bedford Court and they'd have that bocci game in the middle of the street. There'd be a lot of wine drinking and all that, and of course that was completely out of my mother's realm of living.
Cornelia – Absolutely taboo.
Clara – She just didn't feel it was a good environment for us to continue living in so she went towards getting us out of there. We didn't realize it at the time, but since we've gotten older, we know what she was up to.
...There were other Norwegians, but maybe they were living on Davis Court.
Clara – Carolyn Holden's family lived on Davis Court.
...And I think there were some Engebretsens too who lived there. I don't know whether they lived on Davis or whether they lived on ...
Cornelia – I think it was Davis.
... So where did you move to then?
Cornelia – To Hubbard Street. 36 Hubbard Street. It's a duplex house there about three houses from the corner of Thoreau Street, and we all lived there until we were married and moved out.
...And when you say three houses, number 36, if you were going from Thoreau street down, would it be on the right hand side of Hubbard or left?
Cornelia – Left.
...So it's just past those two smaller houses on Hubbard.
Cornelia – Yes, it is.
Clara – Then there are two duplexes, almost alike, and ours was the first one going down.
... And who lived in the other side of the duplex.
Clara – Well, the Vanderhoofs lived there for years and years and years.
Cornelia – And the McDonald family lived there. My parents rented that on the other side and the McDonald family lived there for a long time and then the Vanderhoofs lived there for many, many years.
... But your father owned the house.
Cornelia – Yes.
...And all eight of you, then, were raised right there.
Cornelia – Yes, we were.
...I guess one of the things I'd like to know is the kinds of communication that your family had with other Norwegians. A lot of people who were Norwegians belonged to the Norwegian and Danish Methodist Church on Thoreau Court. Others went to Trinitarian where there was a special service for Norwegians.
Clara – Yes. And then they started their own church.
...And eventually then the Lang Church.
Clara – We're Lang Street people.
...But what were you before Lang Street?
Cornelia – We went to the Congregational Church. We always went there, and then they let them have a room where they could have their meetings, and I remember we had to go to two Sunday Schools. First we went to Congregational Sunday School, and then we had to run up to Lang Street and go because we had gone to Congregational Church, we still attended there, but when they branched off and went to Lang Street, well, we had to go there too. So we'd run from one Sunday School to the other.
Clara – I remember the first minister's name was Mr. Hoosefy that got this congregation together at the Congregational Church and then when they got large enough he felt they could support a church, then they started the Lang Street church.
...Because way back even Ole Thorpe...
Cornelia – Ole was a minister.
...Oh, yes. Ole was minister there as well at Trinitarian. Do you go back that far?
Cornelia – Yes.
...So you remember his being the minister?
Clara – No, I don't remember him. I just remember that he was. I heard that.
...Because I guess, was there a separate service when you were growing up in Norwegian?
Cornelia – Yes.
...That was right there at Trinitarian so you'd simply have your own room or did you use the sanctuary at a different hour?
Cornelia – We had a room in the back.
Clara – It was a small congregation. It was a small group.
...Who was there? What families do you remember?
Cornelia – Rudolph Petersen.
Clara – The Norwegian families you mean?
..Yes.
Cornelia – Gunda Andeasen. Do you have anything about Andeasen?
... I have a picture of him, but is there a family there?
Cornelia – They have one daughter, and I'm very friendly with her. She lives in Lexington.
Clara – They lived on the corner of Davis Court and Bedford Street and I remember all those relatives. We had no relatives here, of course.
Cornelia – No. We didn't have a soul.
Clara – Gunda was very good to us all the time. She had one daughter rather late in life, as I recall, and they had no children and they were very, very good to us.
...And this one daughter lives in Lexington.
Cornelia – Yes.
Clara – Then there was Alec, Gunda's brother Alec Johnson.
Cornelia – Julia Swen.
Clara – John Swen, brother and sister, they were there. And I've forgotten if the Acton people came to the Concord church.
Cornelia – The Acton Norwegians all came to Lang Street.
Clara – Yes, they did, but they were a very "cliquey" bunch.
Cornelia – They all came to Lang Street. I don't remember them coming to the ...
Clara – I wonder where they went if they didn't come there.
Cornelia – The Christoferson family and Christiansen, that would be Edith Christiansen's in-laws, they came there.
...Yes. She showed me a picture of the Lang Street group in a big picnic.
Clara – Well, when that Lang Street church was going, every Labor Day weekend they had some organization that met and people came from Portland, Maine and all around, and I remember that we used to have to get out of our beds and give beds to the people that came over the weekend.
Cornelia – Yes, we had to sleep on the floor while they took the beds. All the families here took the families and then they had this big religious conference every Labor Day weekend. And a big picnic and a real family time for everybody, which I can recall, was one of the very pleasant memories.
Clara – Oh, yes, we looked forward to that. We were happy to give up our beds. We just loved that.
...Did you remain active in the Lang Street church for years and after you got married?
Cornelia – No, then we sort of strayed away from that.
Clara – And actually the older families died away and a few of the members were still there, but then new people came in that we were not familiar with at a later date. Our parents were charter members of that church so of course they were very active all during our growing up days. But then, as we grew older, then of course we thought we needed to go some place else, with our friends, the way young people do.
Clara – I wasn't back here, really, after I got out of high school.
Cornelia – No, you were gone then.
...What about the Sons of Norway? Did your father belong to that?
Clara – No, he did not, to my knowledge.
Cornelia – Not to my knowledge. I remember his paying some kind of insurance for some outfit.
Clara – He used to take a Scandinavian paper that was printed in Chicago, I think. I thought he had some insurance through that paper.
Cornelia – To my knowledge, he never had, no.
...Did they belong to the Sick Benefit Society?
Clara – Oh yes, they did.
Cornelia – They did belong to that, yes.
...Were they actively involved?
Clara – I think so.
...That went on for quite a while, didn't it? Did the Sick Benefit Society concentrate on helping Norwegians living right here in Concord or people of Norwegian background anywhere, or did they send money back to Norway? Do you know what they did as an organization?
Cornelia – I couldn't be sure about that but I thought it was for just the people here.
Clara – We were too young, really, to get involved to that extent, I would think.
Cornelia – I just remember hearing about it when we were children. They had meetings.
...What about the Norwegian language? Did your mother and father speak Norwegian to each other when you were little babies?
Cornelia – No. My parents had a feeling that they didn't want us to learn Norwegian because we couldn't speak it when we went to school. They'd make fun of us. And they felt very strongly about that. So they spoke Norwegian between themselves but they spoke English to us. And consequently, we never learned Norwegian for which we are very sorry. I wish they had taught us the Norwegian language now that we've been able to visit over there. It would be so nice if we could speak to them. But my mother felt very strongly about that. She didn't want anyone making fun of us because we didn't speak properly.
...That's a very typical pattern among all the Norwegians that I've talked to.
Cornelia – Yes, it is. Now it's not that way.
Clara – I'm very interested and very curious as to how they learned English and how to read, because they certainly could read very well, and write.
Cornelia – Who taught them, we don't know.
Clara – Who taught them, we just don't know.
...Because they didn't go to night school or anything like that?
Cornelia – Well, if they did, they never told us anything.
Clara – Somebody did a good job, whoever it was.
Cornelia – Yes, they did.
Clara – But I've often wondered, when I see the classes now, and how we're having dual languages in the schools and all, who help these immigrants, I just wonder who taught my parents.
Cornelia – All these things we wonder about, it's just too late. We can't find out.
...What about customs? Oh, at Christmastime. Or music.
Clara – Well, cooking is the most that I remember. My mother always made special Norwegian cookies. We still make them and we've taught our children and our grandchildren to make them. That's the fondest memory I have about customs. Do you remember anything else?
Cornelia – No, I don't, really.
...What about social life of your parents? A lot of the Norwegians have talked to me about getting together for parties. The Irish used the term "kitchen rackets" that they used to have, where the Irish would go and they'd get in the kitchen and they'd have a fiddle, and they'd move the stove out, and they'd prop up the kitchen floor just in case anything happened. I went along thinking that was just strictly Irish til I talked to Eddie Edwardsen and I talked to Edie Christianson and they both said, "Oh, no. We used to have parties all the time."
Cornelia – Well, I don't think we got into that. My parents were more religious and I don't think they went in for that sort of thing. They used to have meetings at the house. They had Ladies Aid, connected with the church.
...Of Norwegian women?
Cornelia – Yes. Different church groups would come and meet with us, but I don't remember anything to do with any dancing or anything like that, ever.
Clara – My father considered it a sin to play cards. We never had a pack of cards in the house.
...Well, you know, there was an active Scandinavian Temperance Society too that was at Trinitarian and that the Thorpes were involved in and Lars Andersen and so perhaps your mother and father were involved in that too.
Clara – I never saw a drink until I was quite a young lady. And actually, as we visited for three weeks with relatives last year, and not one place did we see any kind of alcohol served. One place they offered us beer and neither one of us like beer. If they'd offered something else, we might have taken it. None of them had any sign of wine, or anything else.
Cornelia – They live a very simple life there.
Clara – Very simple life.
Cornelia – Very nice family life. We were very impressed with the family life while we were there, and that's sort of the roots our parents came from, so we never heard of anything like that.
...Tell me about your mother and father in terms of decision- making and certain kinds of patterns as to whether fathers were dominant, or mothers, or in some families, I find, the women put tremendous stress on education and opportunity and getting ahead.
Clara – My mother was very ambitious.
Cornelia – Very, very ambitious.
Clara – Very, very ambitious for all of us.
Cornelia – Well, it paid off, Clara.
...How did she express that?
Cornelia – Well, through our working and earning money and saving it to go to school and helping ourselves all the time.
Clara – I believe I had my first babysitting job at eleven years old, probably. We all worked all through high school.
Cornelia – Picked strawberries.
Clara – Picked strawberries. Before eleven we picked strawberries at Rudolph Petersen's farm.
...So again Mrs. Petersen encouraged you to go out there?
Clara – Yes, they'd come out with a little wagon and pick up all the children around to go up there and pick strawberries. I believe we got two cents a box.
Cornelia – We were so happy about that.
...That's up where the Beecher's live now, isn't it? Rudolph Petersen's?
Cornelia – No. That's on the farm where Alice Petersen lived.
...Oh, so was Rudolph's where Fenn School is?
Cornelia – No, that was Lars.]
... That's Lars Petersen
Cornelia – Lars was where the Fenn School is. And Rudolph's was before that.
...But not where Nancy Beecher lives?
Cornelia – No. Alice has lived there right up until now, and her son lives there now, or somebody in their family lives there. That has not gone out of the family.
Clara – I remember Mrs. Rudoph Petersen very well. She was the hardest worker I ever saw. She used to have dinners for all these farm hands. They'd come in at noontime for a big dinner. All the farm help would come in from the field. And her floors just shone. Everything in that house was absolutely perfect. She went out on the farm and worked. She did all this cooking. I don't know how she ever did all the work that she did, but she was a very strong woman apparently. But I can remember the whole farm help coming in at noontime and having a hot meal.
Cornelia – We were brought up to work hard.
...And did all eight of you go on to Concord High School?
Cornelia – Yes, we all graduated from Concord High School. My oldest brother, Edwin, who passed away a year ago, went to Tufts and he went into business first, and then he went into school administration work, and he was superintendent in Groton and from there in Marshfield, where a school is named after him, a junior high school named for him. Then he retired to Cape Cod.
...And did he marry a Norwegian
Cornelia – No, he married a girl from Maine.
Clara – Agnes was a secretary for the superintendent of schools here. She did not go beyond high school, but she was secretary for Mr. Hall for years, who was superintendent of schools; she was his secretary for many years before she got married. ...And she's the one that married an Olsen?
Cornelia – Yes. Clarence Olsen.
...And his parents were Christian Olsen?
Cornelia – Yes. And Anna, was it?
...And Anna. And I had that he grew up here too and was born way back 1902 or so right here in Concord. Was your family friends of the Olsens?
Cornelia – No, not particularly. They lived way, way out on Lowell Road. They lived near Middlesex School.
...Were they farmers or did he work at Middlesex?
Cornelia – I think he worked at Middlesex School. I'm not sure.
...And then, did they live here in Concord after they were married?
Cornelia – They lived next door to my mother on Hubbard Street. They bought the house there and lived right next door to our house.
...And how did he make his living?
Cornelia – He was a carpenter.
...By himself?
Cornelia – No, he worked for someone.
... And have they since died?
Cornelia – Yes, they have. They had three children who are still living. Kenneth lives here and one lives in Acton and one lives in Pelham, Maine.
Clara – Kenneth is a real estate broker. That's the name of the company.
Cornelia – He's with someone else now. He's with Fred Boyd.
Clara – Yes, he works with Fred Boyd.
...Who comes after Agnes?
Clara – Well, I'm next. And I went to normal school and taught school and got married.
... You went to Fitchburg.
Clara – Yes.
...And you taught in ...?
Clara – Avon, a little town outside of Brockton. And I taught in Winthrop for a while. I have five children. I was out of school for many years when I was raising my children, I guess probably seventeen or eighteen years, and then I went back teaching and found that I was dropped down in "the middle of China" so to speak because everything had changed so from the days when I had been teaching. So I went to BU nights and got my bachelor's degree and I later got my master's degree and then I went to Lexington to teach.
Cornelia – It was when you got your master's that Charles got his bachelor's degree. You got them at the same time.
...And from Boston University? Your son? The same year?
Clara – Yes.
..Marvelous. When would that have been?
Clara – It's a long time. I have to stop and think about it now.
...What did your husband do for a living?
Clara – Well, Charles would have been ... Well, he worked on the fish pier for quite a while and then he worked at the Anderson Lumber Company in Arlington.
...But he's not from Concord?
Clara – No. He was from the Brockton area.
...You met him when you were down there teachinq there?
Clara – Yes.
...Is he still living?
Clara – No. And then Nelia is next. She was town clerk for 32 years.
Cornelia – I followed Elsie Rose. I was Elsie Rose's assistant and then Alice Ingham came as my assistant in '38 when I took over.
...And you did that for 30 years.
Cornelia – And then Alice didn't want to do it when I finished so there was one in between. She wasn't interested in doing it. So the next one after, I guess she decided she might as well do it.
...Well, that job certainly must have exposed you to so much of the Concord community.
Cornelia – It was very interesting, a very interesting job because there are so many facets to that. People don't realize. Every person coming in wants something different. Very, very interesting. I enjoyed it very much. You see all the people and it's very enjoyable.
Clara – You certainly meet everybody in town.
...Now, you went through Concord High School, and then did you go right to that job?
Cornelia – No. No. Then I went to Burdett School for a little while and like all young things then, I decided I wanted to get married so I got married, and then after that there was a chance to go when my children were quite small, I guess they were in the first grade or so, kindergarten or first grade, there was a chance to work for three days a week. So I went in there at $18 a week which was really great. And of course, I never, ever expected to do anything more with it. I was just going to be in there part time when Mrs. Rose had to be away. Well, like all things, it grows and grows and the next thing I was full time, and then pretty soon she decided she was going into the florist business so she wanted me to take over and I said, "Oh, I don't think I could do that." But I did it. And I was there all those years. So that's how things grow on us.]
...And your husband's name is?
Cornelia – Maxwell. And he was a carpenter.
...I see. And he came from Nova Scotia. By himself or with his parents?
Cornelia – No. He came by himself. His parents knew somebody up here from their town in Nova Scotia that lived in Concord and he wanted to come to the States so he knew who those people were. They were the Whitneys who lived on Fielding Street and Mrs. Whitney came from their town and so he contacted her, and she knew Mr. Cox who was a contractor and she got him a job.
...And when would that have been, roughly?
Cornelia – I think that was probably in 1925 or 1927, in the late twenties.
...And you raised your family down in that house that you mentioned?
Cornelia – No, we lived further down on Hubbard Street in another house. And then we built a house on Main Street, quite a large house, and lived there until our children married and then we decided the house was too large for us so we built a little brick house next door.
...And you had how many children, Mrs. Lawrence?
Cornelia – Two. A son and a daughter.
...And do they live here in Concord?
Cornelia – My son lives in Waltham now. He lived in Concord. He lives in Waltham now. My daughter lives just outside of Washington D. C. And then we have John. He lives in Iowa.
Clara – He graduated from Northeastern and then he went into the Navy.
Cornelia – Yes, he was in the Navy for two years. He was a pilot for Eastern for many years. He's retired now and lives in Florida.
...Did he marry?
Cornelia – Yes, he married someone not from this area at all. She was from out west. I think she was from California. And they have six children. His wife died, but the children are living. Some are in Florida, and some in other places. One's in Texas and one's in Colorado.
...So that makes five, doesn't it? Three girls and two boys so far.
Cornelia – Then there's Melvin. Melvin went to Gould Academy in Maine and he went to Tufts Medical and he was a general practitioner in Acton. They lived in Concord for a while. And he moved up to Leicester which is outside of Worcester and practiced there for quite a few years until his death. He died quite young.
... And he also married someone from ....?
Cornelia – He married a Middleton girl. She was Dr. Middleton's granddaughter. She was from Acton.
...Why would he have gone to Gould Academy rather than the high school?
Clara – Well, my brother Eddie's wife lived in Bethel, Maine and I think her father was a trustee or something.
Cornelia – Well, you know, it's because of the accident. There was a very bad accident. There was a group of boys, I think they were about sixteen or seventeen years old. They had a birthday party for this boy. They were going to Lexington to the movies as part of the birthday party and on the way to Lexington they were hit by a truck and my brother was very seriously injured. He had a fractured skull and he was very seriously injured. And one boy was killed. And my brother was sitting behind him. And he was hospitalized for quite a long time, just hovering, and we didn't know if he was going to make it or not. And then after that, this doctor, this girl that my brother married, her father was a doctor in Bethel, Maine, and a trustee of Gould Academy, and they suggested that he come there and go to school, as he could, there, as he became stronger. So he did go up there, and he recovered and that's how he got into Gould, and he stayed there at Gould and he graduated. So that's how that happened. And then from there, he went to Tufts Medical.
...And then after ... what was his first name?
Clara – Melvin.
...Melvin. And then who came after Melvin?
Cornelia – Henry. Henry came next. And he married a Sheehan girl.
...Did he marry one of the Sheehans out there on Barrett's Mill?
Cornelia – Yes.
...as opposed to the Sheehans down here.
Cornelia – Yes. And they still live on Barrett's Mill. He was a pharmacist.
...Was that Charlie Sheehan's daughter?
Cornelia – Yes.
...And he's a pharmacist?
Clara – Yes. And they still live in the Sheehan house. And Helen was the baby. She graduated from high school and went to Wilfred Academy for hairdressing. And she practiced there until she was married. She married Fred Thompson. His parents lived in Maynard. And they've lived in various places and ended up in the family home on Hubbard Street. They bought the house from my mother when she got too old to handle it any more and they're both dead now and so their daughter owns the house now.
Cornelia – And it's nice for us because we have a family reunion every summer. We're allowed to go down and use that back yard.
Clara – We've had a family reunion every single fall. Some time in fall. Once we tried it in the summer, but it's better in September, and sometimes there are 75 members of the family there.
...Who are all descendants from your parents?
Clara – Yes.
...So even though most of your brothers and sisters are dead, you really see your nephews and nieces.
Clara – Oh yes, we do. They all love coming and we're so happy to see each other every year. We look forward to it.
...But there are just the two of you and your brother left?
Cornelia – Two brothers. Henry, and John in Florida.
Clara – But we do have very close family association and it's a great time on family reunion day.
Cornelia – One of the tenants joins in with us. We've made him an honorary Norwegian so he could come to our reunion. So he gets the place all spiffed up when he knows we're coming.
...And that's that duplex that you described.
Clara – Yes, it is.
Cornelia – When we started it, we had it, I think, near the 16th of September because that was my mother's birthday. So we set that as the day in the fall we would have it. And we've continued it. Even though she's been gone, we always have it on the Sunday nearest the 16th. And you know, we've always been blessed with good weather. We've never been rained out.
Clara – Never been rained out.
Cornelia – I hardly dare say it out loud. We couldn't have it if we were rained out because there are too many. We couldn't have it in anyone's house.
Clara – No place would hold us.
Cornelia – So we have a wonderful reunion every year.
Clara – We held it in Lexington in my back yard for many years, and when I sold my house and went into an apartment, Kenny Olsen made arrangements so that we could go back to Grandma's yard.
...I was thinking about your mother's interest in education and I wondered if some of that, she might have also gotten a lot of encouragement from Mrs. Chamberlain. It sounds as if she worked for her for quite a while before she got married and Mrs. Chamberlain was amazing. She was deaf, and she was one of the founders of Concord Academy and obviously placed a tremendous premium on education.
Clara – My mother, apparently, was very smart too because I don't know where I got the story, but the schoolmaster there wanted to pay to send her to gymnasium or whatever the next level of school is.
...In Trissel?
Clara – In Trissel.
Cornelia – I always heard from somewhere that she was very good with figures. Very good with figures. And they wanted her to continue. Her parents.
Clara – That wasn't the thing for girls to do in those days in Norway, apparently, and they didn't let her go. But she certainly was very ambitious for all of us.
Cornelia – I think you could probably say she was the dominant figure in our family.
...Yes. Yes.
Cornelia – I think in our family my mother was the dominant figure. However, when our father was there...! I remember as a child we had seven bicycles in the family all lined up. That wasn't too many with all those children. On Sunday afternoons I used to go with him to ride up to Helsher's or some other Norwegian on Sunday. That was a treat to ride, to take my bicycle and go with him up to visit one of the other Norwegian families on a Sunday afternoon. You probably have some things like that too.
Clara – What I remember quite vividly is Lexington Park, which was a big park on this end of Lexington, Concord end of Lexington. The streetcar companies had these parks around very parts of the state, and that was always a big treat when the Martinsen family would line for the open car. We'd take a whole seat of the open car and take our lunch and spend the day in Lexington Park. That was really a big treat.
Cornelia – Well, I guess all the ethnic groups enjoyed it.
... They all did, yes. So I would also get a sense that your parents were ... would they have been completely unconcerned about whether you married Norwegians or would they have preferred you to have married Norwegians?
Clara – We don't think so. There was never any discussion.
...Again, a sense of being assimilated and that wasn't important.
Cornelia – No, we didn't have to have Norwegian friends or anything like that. We were just Americans.
...Now, was your husband Catholic?
Clara – Yes.
...Now, was that an issue with your mother and father or not that either?
Clara – It was with my father. I'm not sure about my mother. She never said too much, but I don't think my father liked it very well.
... But for a while there, that was always an issue on both sides. There were certain kinds of tensions between St. Bernard's and the Protestant element in the town. Were you aware of that, growing up at all?
Cornelia – Oh, there was a lot feeling at one time. Probably was the same all over the nation. I don't know.,
...Yes. I think so.
Cornelia – But of course, that has changed.
Clara – It's really incredible that things have changed so from our childhood to the leniency now.
...When you were in high school, were you conscious of social class at all in terms of elements on Main Street and Lowell Road and Concord Street?
Cornelia – Yes, I was. I sort of at times felt put down and I think I had a feeling that I wasn't as good as the others.
Clara – Inferiority, you mean?
Cornelia – Yes, I had an inferiority complex when I was in high school, I'm sure.
Clara – I did too, as a matter of fact.
Cornelia – Lots of times the teacher would call on me to say something, and I wouldn't dare to answer because I'd think I was wrong, and most times if I had spoken up, I would have been right but I was afraid that if I made a mistake, it would be a terrible thing, and I'd rather say that I didn't know than get up and make a mistake. So I really did have an inferiority complex and I wish I hadn't had.
...Were there certain elements in your high school classes who seemed to dominate in terms of running the school offices or was there not?
Cornelia – I don't know about that end of it, but I think the students, maybe, they were much better than I was.
...Old Yankees, in particular, you mean?
Clara – Yes, I think so.
Cornelia – Yes.
...Nellie Nelson talked about the issue of growing up.
Cornelia – The Yankee townspeople were here before we were and so I always felt kind of looked down on.
Clara – When my mother wanted to buy that house on Hubbard Street, she had to have a "straw buyer" because they would never have sold it to her.
Cornelia – With eight children.
Clara – With eight children.
... Is that right?
Cornelia – Nobody wanted eight children coming in. We weren't bad kids, but they didn't know that. At least, I don't think we were bad.
...There are some elements even, a little bit, and I think this goes back historically, of Swedes feeling superior to Norwegians.
Clara – Oh, is that so!
...And I still get that.
Cornelia – I think there has been that feeling.
... But I wondered if that was expressed in Concord. Nellie thought yes.
Cornelia – I think so. And I can't tell you why, but I do have that in the back of my mind.
... The Swedes thought they were superior intellectually and that the Norwegians did the dirty work. That they were the laborers.
Cornelia – And the Danes also, I think.
... Felt superior to the Norwegians as well? And of course Sweden had conquered Norway. Norway was part of Sweden until 1907 or so when you finally got independence.
Cornelia – And I think there's feeling still in Norway against the Swedes for that maybe.
...I think that I've heard some of that.
Cornelia – I remember when I was there with my mother - I went with my mother on one trip - they have these berries that are very rare. They go up in the mountains to pick them. They're delicious berries. And they only grow at a certain time of the year, of course. And we were there, and a relative of ours got up at like two in the morning to go to pick them and they said the Swedes got there before them and took them all. They were serious about it. I thought it was kind of humorous, but they were really serious about it.